[Discuss] points

Ian Manning manning.ian at gmail.com
Wed Apr 21 22:15:28 BST 2010


With reference to Anne's follow up also,

I have personally had bbqs on Jesus Green many a time and have cleared 
up after "myself" (by which I obvoiusly mean the group I was with) and 
did not burn the grass.  On the other hand I perfectly accept that there 
are people who don't do this.

Could the City Rangers be asked to take this on perhaps? [the park 
ranger role]

On 21/04/2010 14:13, Peter Constable wrote:
> Yes there really is disagreement. It is with your use of the word 
> "responsible" . Can't think of any way this could be fairly interpreted.
> Peter
> On 21 Apr 2010, at 14:04, ian manning wrote:
>
>> Ok, well I don't think there is really disagreement is there?
>> I'm not saying we shouldn't discourage irresponsible bbqs, I'm saying 
>> that we shouldn't ban all bbqs full stop.  yes it will need 
>> continuous policing, but i would rather that than stopping 
>> responsible people from having fun.
>> VIE is the estate next to the riverside bridge ( 
>> http://vieresidents.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56 
>> <http://vieresidents.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56> ).
>>
>> On 21 April 2010 13:44, Anne Garvey <annemgarvey at ntlworld.com 
>> <mailto:annemgarvey at ntlworld.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Personal optimism is great. But to expect people to behave
>>     reasonably has been shown to be sadly misconceived. Some will.
>>     But those scorch marks all over the Green show you that many
>>     won’t and again sadly they are the ones that leave the big brown
>>     marks and spoil it for everyone else.
>>
>>     There are limits to democracy. It’s surely about the greatest
>>     good for the greatest number. People should  not be able to
>>     express freedoms by damaging the lovely scene for others surely?
>>
>>     On balance you cannot check every single barbecue . I have tried
>>     telling people they’re burning the grass but by the time they are
>>     it’s too late and they don’t care anyway and just want you to go
>>     away. I would rather \ the State’ told people not to do this
>>     rather than people like me opening themselves up to ridicule and
>>     abuse by trying to police the vandalism right in front of our
>>     eyes. Isn’t this what we have a civil society for?
>>
>>     Btw what is VIE?
>>
>>
>>
>>     On 21/4/10 11:33, "ian manning" <manning.ian at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:manning.ian at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         This all sounds rather conservative with a small c, and very
>>         negative.  It is a shame I didn't get a single reply to my
>>         request for help, yet this thread with people generally
>>         moaning and being negative gets so many replies.
>>
>>         It is perfectly possible to have a bbq without damaging the
>>         environment or disturbing other people - and no one should
>>         have any right to stop reasonable people being reasonably. 
>>         Democracy is about each individuals right to express
>>         themselves, not the state telling them what to do.
>>
>>         Of course I agree that people not behaving reasonable should
>>         feel the force of the law/enforcement.
>>
>>         And, on your specific point Anne, yes I am an optimistic
>>         person, I dont' see a need to apologise for that! :)
>>
>>         Ian
>>
>>         Ian Manning
>>         Chair, VIE Residents' Association
>>         http://www.vieresidents.org.uk
>>         <http://www.vieresidents.org.uk/>
>>         <http://www.vieresidents.org.uk/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         On 21 April 2010 11:18, Anne Garvey <annemgarvey at ntlworld.com
>>         <mailto:annemgarvey at ntlworld.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             Good point on the barbecue spelling, shall adopt immediately.
>>
>>             Booking a party on a barbecue site? A really good idea,
>>             but that doesn’t detract from the very real Libertarian
>>             problem. We are ruled by Liberal Democrats and their
>>             emphasis is more liberal than demotic. It is hard to ban
>>             things for them. Other countries, sites, parks don’t
>>             share ( thank God) this aversion to telling people what
>>             to do but our Council and its adherents and followers
>>             still hope that people will just ‘do the right thing’ and
>>             reminded that they shouldn’t permanently burn the grass
>>             for the whole season will desist from so doing.
>>
>>             People in the past would have fount this approach risibly
>>             optimistic. And so do many citizens today. There is
>>             nothing  wrong I contend with introducing signs to remind
>>             Green Users ( yes Simon I have just got the confusion in
>>             a General Election) that there exists a ban on fires as I
>>             prefer to call them, as barbecues are just as destructive
>>             and you can’t have any smoke without either.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             On 20/4/10 20:08, "Simon Norton"
>>             <S.Norton at dpmms.cam.ac.uk
>>             <mailto:S.Norton at dpmms.cam.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>
>>             > Sorry if it makes me seem pedantic, but "barbecue" is
>>             not spelt with a Q. If
>>             > it
>>             > was it would be pronounced quite differently ! I regard
>>             the abbreviation BBQ,
>>             > which does suggest the correct pronunciation, as acceptable.
>>             >
>>             > Also, with the forthcoming general election, I initially
>>             misinterpreted the
>>             > start of the first message on this thread "the Greens
>>             are being badly
>>             > damaged..." (with a capital G).
>>             >
>>             > Now for a couple of more substantive issues. First, in
>>             yesterday's Guardian
>>             > there is an article suggesting that eating barbecued
>>             food can cause cancer.
>>             > Search for "barbecue cancer" on
>>             http://www.guardian.co.uk <http://www.guardian.co.uk/>
>>             <http://www.guardian.co.uk/>
>>             >
>>             > Secondly, I would have thought that most people would
>>             want barbecuing
>>             > facilities
>>             > for parties rather than family meals. Could one
>>             therefore introduce a booking
>>             > system whereby people contacted the Council in advance,
>>             saying where they
>>             > wanted
>>             > to hold the barbecue and roughly how many people they
>>             expected, and the
>>             > Council
>>             > would then tell them whether there was anywhere suitable
>>             that fit their
>>             > requirements ? This would have the advantage of
>>             eliminating the need for
>>             > special
>>             > notices. Bye laws would read something like "no cooking
>>             unless authorised" --
>>             > which I think is appropriate anyway because of the
>>             number of special events on
>>             > Midsummer Common (and other greens) where freshly cooked
>>             food is sold (more
>>             > pedantry !). I would expect that the Council would
>>             impose some kind of payment
>>             > for the facility, which should be refunded if the
>>             weather was such that the
>>             > barbecue had to be cancelled. Is this a feasible way of
>>             doing things ?
>>             >
>>             > If this was agreed then SOS should ask to be consulted
>>             as to what places would
>>             > be considered suitable -- that is, assuming that the
>>             answer isn't "none".
>>             >
>>             >  Simon Norton
>>             >
>>             >
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